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So happy for you and your girls. It simply amazes me that anyone follows these ridiculous rules. I took a look around the linked web site and found one instance of breathtaking made-up idiocy after another. These are perhaps best represented by this: Wait required after bowel movement? Question: With regards to finding a kesem on toilet paper, I was wondering if the rule of waiting more than 15 seconds only applies after urinating or for a bowel movement as well? Thank you Answer: It applies specifically after urinating, as urinating may mask a sensation of menses. In practice, a woman who has a bowel movement after urinating generally waits fifteen seconds for that reason alone.

Steve Report abuse. I learnt something new from this post. It was not, I can say, something I particularly wanted to learn but nevertheless …. Jacob A quick question, do you have actual blood in your veins? As if it were a trip to the dentist, just a little more painful than it should have been. Perhaps you think most women are OK with all of this?

Perhaps Katia is just being a little sensitive? In the context in which it was written, I would be hard put to recount a more callous and cold-blooded statement than this remark of yours. I am neither of these things however, so I ask again, Jacob, do you in fact have veins full of icewater?

And for a follow up question do you, in your sick little world, mods sorry — personal attack, I would hope you let this one go , do you, Jacob, actually believe that this is the will of God? Again — really? Judaism is not the only religion to treat women shamefully and you Jacob certainly and sadly are not the only adherent who believes that this is all correct and proper, that God intended women to be second-class citizens.

Katia you have my immense respect. Good luck, and thanks for having the guts to write this. There are positives from each culture and maybe even a few from some religions but this is clearly not one of them. No child is born religious… Report abuse. There has been an obsession with virginity and menstruation in the abrahamic religions that is fanatical, bizarre and perverse. Now if you think for a moment, if you were the God of everything, would there be any need to state the obvious? I mean, if there was a God of everything then everything would know, instinctively, who this God was.

But this comes from the time before Israelite monotheism and the killing off of the other gods and their priests, if you read history rather than listening Bible ranters! Canaanite religion describes the belief systems and ritual practices of the people living in the ancient Levant region throughout the Bronze Age and Iron Age. Until recently, little was known of these traditions outside of the Hebrew Bible, which denigrated them as idolatrous and licentious. Twentieth century archaeological excavations, however, unearthed several texts, as well as many artifacts, which provided previously unknown details and insights into the nature of Canaanite religion.

Canaanite religious beliefs were polytheistic, with families typically focusing worship on ancestral household gods and goddesses, while honoring major deities such as El, Ashera, Baal, Anat, and Astarte at various public temples and high places. Kings also played an important religious role, especially in certain ceremonies, such as the sacred marriage of the New Year Festival, and may have been revered as gods.

The Canaanite pantheon was conceived as a divine clan, headed by the supreme god El; the gods collectively made up the elohim. Through the centuries, the pantheon of Canaanite gods evolved, so that El and Asherah were more important in earlier times, while Baal and his consorts came to fore in later years.

At the very least, every month a Rabbi should bring his dirty panties to a select jury of women within his community, for them to deliberate on the relationship between the color of his discharges and his fitness to serve as judge on the color of their discharges. It would be only fair. First of all, a point of halacha: the stain on the examination cloth doesnt have to be bigger than a penny to make you nidda, nor does it have to be darker than tan.

The tiniest tiniest stain, in any shade of red from light pink to black is considering invalidating. The under-penny-sized stain is acceptable only if seen on a white or light-coloured or coloured pant. This is only a preview of all the complexities of these laws. Is it more orange or red or yellow? A rebbetzin, which studied these matters, is as qualified as anyone to determine the nature of the stain.

In my community, we have a rebbetzin which is very competent and I assure you my community is more of the right-leaning type. My friends and I talk about our yoatzot and no one ever told me hers was telling her that the go-to-a-rabbi being a touchy subject for a bride to be, I would have heard of a yoetzet being that mean with one of my friends. But sex is still a mitsva during pregnancy and after menopause, which are times during which couple dont have these monthly interruptions, and no one seems to be concerned that husband will be disgusted of their wives.

I have never been told, in the numerous occasions I have learned about Nidda, that my husband would be disgusted by me if I had too much sex with him. Nothing, comparing to simply having to put an envelope into a mailbox with your telephone number on it. And the women are totally competent to make legal rulings see Dvora.

But if we were considered incompetent to apply the legal rulings made by the heads of our religion, we would have to bring every single one of our bdikot to the rav.

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Jewish women and men all the time use their judgement to determine if something is permitted or not. So why exactly do you think examining bdikot is any different? I am an Orthodox Jew, going on 30 years of marriage. My wife and I faithfully observed the laws of taharat hamishpachah family purity from the time of our wedding until she experienced menopause. Neither of us would have had it any other way! While the article and some of the responses to it betray an inherent bias against any religious practices, I will nonetheless assay to explain the Jewish perspective.

We view the laws of family purity as God-given, no different than the laws of Shabbat, or the laws related to thievery, or the laws related to giving charity! The article criticizes family purity on several grounds, and i will address these: 1. A woman having a discharge of questionable color usually has several options.

Now it may happen that a woman may have to go directly to a rabbi and yes, generally rabbis are the qualified ones, by virtue of their rigorous study of the applicable laws. Life is sometimes uncomfortable! But their is nothing sexual about the encounter! Believe me, I have looked at panties and cloths, and it is not at all arousing! The perverted ones are the commenters who somehow want to see sex in everything.

Which leads me to point two:. Yes, this is not well known, but in the times of the Temple in Jerusalem, the laws of purity and impurity had ramifications for men and women. Certain penile discharges also had to be viewed and evaluated. Today the male aspect is moot, and it will remain so until the rebuilding of the Temple, but back in the day, this was an everyday occurrence.

It may not have been a comfortable experience, but again, life is not always comfortable. It seems that Aryeh has decided for herself that no logical woman would accept these laws. I challenge readers to read! Read articles written by women who find that the laws of niddah elevate them. Women are not sex objects to be used by men as it suits the men. A woman is entitled to her personal space, to a time when she and her spouses explore the non-physical parts of their relationship.

Is this good for a marriage? I think that today, the divorce rate in the Orthodox community at large is probably a stratospheric… ten to fifteen percent! Yes, too high, but nowhere near the percentage in the country at large. What explains this low rate? Part of it is that yes, by separating periodically pun intended , a husband and wife maintain their desire for one another.

Non-stop accessibility is not ideal for a marriage. However, knowing the colors is a complicated skill that involves significant study under the tutelage of one who already has studied. Generally, it is rabbis who study this matter along with their other studies of ritual law. It depends on the woman; responses vary. When this is the case, Jewish law allows for less frequent checking; there are ways to minimize the discomfort. But the laws of niddah are not irrational at all.

They may perfect sense, and for the record, sex after separation is amazing! To complete my last thought in the previous post: I am not commenting on marital relations after separation from a strictly personal perspective. The Talmud itself states that after a woman goes to the mikveh ritual bath and returns to her husband, their experience simulates their wedding night presumably when they had sex for the first time. I think that most Orthodox men and women will concur that just as continuous eating of chocolate will lead to a disdain for chocolate, the same goes for other physical pleasures, including intimacy.

Orthodox Jews strive for modesty, but this does not mean that Jewish laws shies away from discussing pleasure. The Talmudic Sages were well aware of the powerful sexual urge, and Jewish law seeks to direct that urge, not to discourage it! We view sex as good, healthy, and part of normative life. Within the marital context, as long as the wife is tehorah meaning she has gone to the mikveh , there are practically no constraints on what she and her husband can do in bed. Looking back, if I were given the choice, I would do it all over again.

Keeping the laws of niddah is a wonderful experience. You must be aware of the fact that the regular readers and contributors to this website are well aware that those people who are still under the effects of their childhood indoctrination into whatever religion it happens to be, believe that the ideas of the ancient desert semitic tribes are of paramount importance in living correctly in this current time. I hope you will not be surprised to hear that every devout Muslim on the face of the earth believes the same thing.


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Then what happens is predictable; the outsider to that religion spends a few minutes reading the Koran and is immediately shocked at the brutality, sexism and every other moral failure that is recognized by all of us moderns who are not brainwashed from childhood to admire these writings and opinions. Try to understand that the Jewish holy writings are no different whatsoever than those of the Christians and Muslims. They are the same. You will definitely achieve the opposite result.

These books inspire disgust in us moderns. One thing that every secular person is proud of is our ability to leave behind the bad old ideas that come from religion and that come from any other source as well. It takes a flexible educated mind to analyse ideas and run them through the filter of modern ethics. All of the freedoms and equality that we in the West appreciate and maybe take for granted too, come from the great thinkers of the Enlightenment and everyone who had the opportunity and courage to move us forward to our current position.

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The very person who started this website, Richard Dawkins, has done so much to boost the position of all secular people and has no doubt suffered great aggravation in all of these years because of it. We say the same about the Muslims, your cultural cousins. Ten to fifteen percent divorce rate? All fundamentalists keep their women uneducated and block them from having good money making careers.


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You flatter yourself to think that your women are happy when they and their children are under oppressive control. You think that a few days of no sexual contact will refresh her interest in you? No wonder fundamentalists control their women so closely. With that kind of dull sex and display of disgust over the state of female genitals I pity any woman who has to perform her marital duty for the rest of her life in these conditions. Hmm, I would argue the converse: those who believe that the physical world somehow came into being by itself are entirely illogical.

But this is quite beside the point. To a carefully worded, gentle post, you responded with an invective. I will not stoop to your level, but I will respond to your points: 1. You have somehow figured out that our low divorce rate is do to our women having no careers and no outside life. Neither is the case. Today, most Orthodox women have careers outside the home. Many are lawyers, doctors, or even Ivankas well, maybe not that rich! In the home, they and their husbands work together to raise their families. You, as an outsider, have no right to tell us whether we are happy!

But you are welcome to interview my wife and ask her. It is an ontological fact that familiarity breeds contempt. The reason we keep the laws is that God commanded us to do so. But freshness is a great byproduct! And in truth, as one gets older and one has a somewhat lower sex drive, this particular benefit of separation recedes, which coincides well with women reaching menopause and not needing to separate.

But I will tell you, Laura, once in a while I do miss those times of separation and renewal! I do believe there is good to be found in Islam and in Christianity. Within the marital context, as long as the wife is tehorah meaning she has gone to the mikveh. Breeding large numbers of new cult child members as a method of sustaining and spreading the meme, is also a feature — regardless of the poverty which can be produced as a result of large families where resources are limited!

Logic is a process of deduction and induction — usually starting with physical evidence , NOT a badge to be stuck on to asserted preconceptions about conjured-up magical creations. The evolution of the Earth following its formation, is explained by the Giant impact hypothesis , as most astronomers and educated people know. This is an evidence based logical understanding of accretion events which are still observable and on-going in the Solar System! If he refuses to, that is grounds for divorce and the converse applies as well.

As for poverty, those who opt in to Orthodox Judaism know that birth control is allowed, depending on circumstance. Poverty is absolutely a circumstance that comes into play when deciding whether birth control is allowed. The comment is about a number of religions such as Catholicism , which discourage birth control!

A religion is not a race — and religious conflicts may or may not be between groups of the same of different races! The Jewish view on birth control currently varies between the Orthodox, Conservative and Reform branches of Judaism. Among Orthodox Judaism, use of birth control has been considered only acceptable for use in limited circumstances.

A you saying your lives are not dominated by reporting your sex lives to rabbis, following particular dress codes, and carrying out strange behaviours or abstaining from various activities during the Sabbath? Observations of religion related behaviours on this website, are not confined to any one religion or sect of it! This attempt to imply general criticism as anti-semitism is a poor show and needs to stop.

It is not. Love to hear your advise to the woman Avi. Mmm — The accounts from witnesses — particularly female witnesses, seem to differ from those of salesmen! All fairy tales leave out the trail of destruction the white night has left behind. Olgan, to which woman? The one in the link at 48 Avi. As I stated — a religion is not a race! The two are not interchangeable! Race is the classification of humans into groups based on physical traits, ancestry, genetics, or social relations , or the relations between them.

The term was often used in a general biological taxonomic sense,[6] starting from the 19th century, to denote genetically differentiated human populations defined by phenotype. Perhaps you could explain which one it is? As far as I am aware people with black skins believe in a wide range of religions, and hold a diversity of views on contraception, just as the diverse religions of Islam, Judaism and Christianity, are followed by the the Semitic races of the Middle East! It is quite common for those isolated in fundamentalist beliefs, to be unaware of the wider range of viewpoints held by the peoples of the world outside of their own limited religious circle!

Perhaps this will explain it, but it does cover a spectrum of religions, rather than just some sects of Judaism. Fundamentalists often assert the primacy of their own idiosyncratic interpretation of religious texts over centuries of acquired knowledge and practice. This puts them at odds not only with the secular world and members of other religions, but also with their less zealous brethren.

Olgun asked you what advice you would offer to her. Two classes of people breed unsustainably, the very poorest who need kids to help them survive better through illness and old age and the fundamentalist religious breeders, Catholics, Quiver-Full folk, and yourselves. Most other Christians and Muslims with high total fertility rates are simply dirt poor. Children believe anything but as an adult you have the freedom and obligation to pull forth all of these ideas and filter them through the framework that ethics provides.

Is there harm? Based on the ethical obligations I will present them if you would like that. This is what I mean by modern ethics. This is training for the mind. Yes there are a few old ideas that I have kept. There are aspects of traditional lifestyles that I retain but this is only after I have given them years of consideration and observation of their consequences.

But the bulk of the bad old ideas that were meme dumped into my brain by people around me when I was a child and the hours every week that I was forced to spend at the Methodist church were judged by me to be either useless or harmful. In fact, it took me years to review those stupid memes and dispose of them with better replacements. I lost too much time.

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This leaves me very bitter. I will refer you to a book by Lawrence Krauss on this subject or any other qualified person. My field of study at University was experimental psych and I added a couple semesters after that with classes in the bio department, anthropology, etc. These classes were necessary for me to have some basic understanding of the discussions that take place here on this site.

There are still many mysteries to be solved. The beauty is in the quest. By invective, do you mean the general tone of my comment or is there an ad hom in there somewhere? You must realize which website you have wandered onto, right? I mean, you can write any vile ideas in gorgeous prose but if the ideas are rotten to the core then what I will offer you is the truth of my opinion.

The ideas that you defend are ones that are disgusting to anyone who is not completely brainwashed in your ancient ideology. For women who are trapped in fundamentalist communities I hope they can find happiness somehow somewhere. They rarely have the means to do so and I would never ask them to leave their children behind. You seem very confident that your little world is happy and stable. When women suffer from oppression here or there or across the globe, I feel that. All women feel that and yes indeed, we are judging you. As a member of a community that has been persecuted relentlessly, surely you can identify with this.

Thank you for providing an example of how we take ideas and churn them through some skeptical analysis. It adds nothing. I think familiarity breeds a little ennui here and there. A little taking the other for granted. Just a little evo-bio-psych joke there. Come on Avi, lighten up a little, will you please? That was wicked funny. I know you can do it. Now Ari, this is purely lack of imagination. A little advice, book yourself and the Mrs into a cute little seaside resort in the South of France for as much time as you can afford.

This will have wonderful effect that a dreary religious rite could never compete with. Now get that charge card out and take action instead of droning on about your tired rituals. What are you waiting for. ALL ideas are fair game! I understand that your first impulse is to lash out with insults but please try not to do that right away. Think it through. I do know how difficult this process is. We all get our backs up over assertive challenges to what we hold dear. I do give you every credit for having the guts to venture forth here even if we never agree on a single thing when you must have known that there are readers who disagree with you.

Also, I do believe that chucking around accusations of anti-semitism is a lazy and predictable tactic. Alan, from the responses I have been getting, it seems that you folks, not we, are the intolerant ones. You cannot stand the fact that someone holds different beliefs than you although, lacking any moral barometer, I am uncertain how you have any beliefs at all.

Au contraire, our sex lives are private! Unlike your world, where everything goes and there are no moral restraints, we believe that a sense of modesty has value! Yes, we believe that on the Sabbath, we are restricted from certain activities. Thank God, I do not have seven days in my week.

I have six days plus one entirely different day. I am thrilled every time the Sabbath commences and I am saddened when it ends. What a beautiful thing to be able to take one day off from the rigors, physical and mental, of the week! I recommend you try it. But yes, some things we do may seem strange to you. You have no concept of Judaism. You have no experiential evidence upon which to rely. You examine everything by your narrow-minded, anything goes barometer. That is truly sad.

I am kind of surprised well, not really that an organization claiming to support open-mindedness is so closed-minded to others! If you use that term with us, then yes, it is anti-Semitic. I have maintained an even, reasoned tone. Others perhaps not specifically you have been much more ad hom; a sign, I believe, that they have no argument!

I have addressed most of your points, but let me assure you, Laurie, one can faithfully observe our rituals and still check into a romantic resort, with whirlpool for two, and thoroughly enjoy themselves. What are you selling. Your wonderful life full of whirlpools and sex or the religion? If it is the latter then it clearly is not working for all and in particular women.

Do you care or are you going to carry on ignoring people like that woman in the link. Bit much telling others their world is narrow when when you ignore whats going on around you. Please stop the victim stuff. Ive lost count. You are killing the conversation. You cannot stand the fact that someone holds different beliefs than you. On the contrary! I have studied many different beliefs and world views, and have evaluated them in terms of their long and short term effects on people, and the capability of people to cope with the problems of life.

There are, and have been, literally thousands of religions and cultures in addition to yours. I collect evidence based ideas which have been tested and shown to work, and then up-date them when valid new information becomes available. I thought this discussion was about women regularly consulting rabbis about sexual discharges! Did you miss that point? In the secular world they consult doctors if they think there is a problem. You clearly have no concept of secular morality or codes of conduct which involve empathy, reciprocal altruism, and consideration of other people.

Humanism is about respecting humans, not gods. The taboos come in many forms. There are also quite a few secular Jews who participate in discussions on this site, although they usually base their comments on their associations with Jewish family members and evidence, rather than just making wild assumptions about the knowledge of others in discussions. It is sad that you do not know how to seek out real information about other viewpoints, but are left looking at a blank when others say they do not accept all of your personal beliefs.

I think this psychological projection of your own lack of an open minded view of the world outside of your own belief bubble. You exhibit a lack of awareness, and seem to be struggling to even discuss other viewpoints. Unlike fundamentalists, those who embrace critical rational thinking and science, are very open minded, but examine ideas for evidenced support and validity before accepting them.

Lack of acceptance does not imply a lack of knowledge or understanding. They are not open to having any old long refuted garbage poured into their heads. Folk taking more than their fair share need a good reason like being dirt poor and in need of help. That is of course once again an irrelevant strawman diversion from the original issue of religious discouragement of contraception for the purpose of creating large families of believers. Arguing a false equivalence is a fallacy! Gratuitous allegations of anti-Semitism, are just a mentally lazy way of dodging answering valid criticisms — usually criticisms of:- damaging or repressive religious beliefs, the government of Israel, or Zionist literalist claims to be entitled to steal land from the previous owners whose families have lived on it for decades or centuries!

My take is as long as both consent and what manifests is strength and love, have at it.. I applaud you for finding such harmony and adopting practices that again, due to your words seem to heighten and deepen your love for each other. My questions. Would you speak harshly to her. How about your brothers children?

Would there be gossip? If your grandson wanted to be baptized christian, would you disown him? If any of your family members identified as atheist, would it be a crisis? See, pressure to conform is not always overt and obvious. It is not always actually verbalized. Sometimes menace can simply be shadowy and amorphous. So, tell me, are you inadvertently I am sure pressuring your family members into conformity?

I eagerly await your answers. Do you realize that you have lobbed a few insults at the regulars here? This is what the negative reactions are about. I am not trying to convince you or any other critic here. Judaism does not need excusing. We have a tradition, coming from God, that is thousands of years old. Our tradition has withstood the test of time. But you are certainly guilty of engaging in ad hominem attacks, rather than addressing the issues at hand.

How unfortunate. Laurie, I have not lobbed insults at anyone. If you took any of my words in that fashion, I apologize. I did not say an atheist cannot be moral, but even if I did, that would not be an ad hominem, it would be an observation based on an assessment of atheism as a philosophy. Here is what I mean, and of course i welcome a reasoned response: When one believes in God, especially in an all-encompassing religious construct such as Judaism has, at least one has a basis for their moral views. For example, I believe that murder is wrong I am referring to a classic case of, say, John murdering Steve because John decides he wishes to kill someone.

The reason I believe John would be wrong is that I believe God commanded us not to murder. It is fair not an ad hominem to ask you, as an avowed atheist, whether you believe John is being immoral in murdering Steve, and if yes, why do you believe this. I think, Laurie, that this is a fair place to start, and I look forward to your response. Avi Report abuse. Crookedshoes, sorry for the delay in responding. Thanks for your input, and indeed these are good and serious questions.

The penalty for having relations with a niddah is the same as for eating on Yom Kippur! But if, God forbid, I had a child who became not religious, I would be very saddened. However, gossip is not permitted in Jewish law, except in very limited circumstances. Simply to talk about someone is forbidden.

If a child of mine were to become Christian, that would be another story. This is considered absolutely horrible. If my daughter or son chose to become gay, that too would be terrible, but i would not break off my connection with them, at the same time not welcoming a same-sex partner into my home. I doubt you will like these answers, but i think they are an accurate depiction of how most Orthodox Jews would react. What would you do without your religion?

But you come to an atheist site expecting a hallelujah and a praise the lord for every one of your posts. If not then…. I have no reason to attack you, though you tried rile me by deliberately misspelling my name in an attempt to divert attention from my question. That part actually showed me how far my internet savvy has grown as these sort of attacks were and are still being used by trolls on the net. Starts with a nursery school name calling followed by diversion and then, this-.

Others perhaps not specifically you have been much more ad hom; a sign, I believe, that they have no argument. You are behaving exactly like a troll even if you are not or realise you are doing it. It is evasive and adds not a jot to the conversation. I am genuinely happy that you are happy within the structure of your choice but not to acknowledge those that are not is immoral. What does your religion say about those less fortunate than yourself? Ignore them?

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Feel anger at them because they dare speak up? Now, again, what advise will you offer this woman , who is of your own faith, based on what you know your religion requires of you in these circumstances. If you are following religious lines in ignoring her suffering then do you have a moral opinion outside of it, like the rest of us here. Logic is a description of arguments. Statements of fact about the structure of arguments, are not insults!

Being wrong is not being insulted! Are you suggesting that your religious group is not a denomination, sect, or cult of Judaism? That would be a position which is rather hard to support! Atheists hold a diversity of philosophies as do the followers of various religions. Killing is quite often approved by states when they want soldiers or rebel groups to do their dirty work. The texts are full of applause for killing people from other religions or other tribes. Most atheists would comply with state laws to respect their fellow man, but there could be exceptions in militaristic repressive states, where state elites abuse the general population or particular minorities.

The fundamental difference between secular states and theocracies or political ideological states, is that secular states generally seek equality before the law for all, whereas theocracies seek privileged positions for the followers of particular religions or ideologies. That is why there are mass killings in religious wars between theocracies based on different religions! That is the problem with the mind-slavery of sects and cults. There is no respect for rational debate or toleration of other viewpoints. That is why the antiquated ignorance-based on bronze-age preconceptions of dogmas resist up-dating in the light of new evidence-based information.

If my daughter or son chose to become gay, that too would be terrible, but i would not break off my connection with them,. This is simply an assertion of bigoted ignorance! This is a medical condition derived from their embryological development in the womb. As biologists know, the dichotomy of male and female is not absolute — neither in humans nor in other organisms. Some species of fish for example, often change sex at some stage in their lives. If you had a disabled child who was a wheelchair user, would you also refuse their fellow wheelchair using partner admission?

According to the United Nations, the condition affects up to 1. These are the sorts of issues where atheists challenge the bigoted ignorance-based bronze-age pseudo-morality of religious dogmas which go in for abusive victim blaming! My post 74 should have been for 70! The origins and evolution of this god from the polytheistic Canaanite pantheon, are being progressively researched by archaeologists and anthropologists.

However thousands of other religions can make similar claims, and have, or have had, followers making similar claims to yours! Do you have some evidence that your claims have any more substance than theirs? The highest court ruled that current laws preventing members of the same sex from marrying violated their right to equality and were unconstitutional.

But strayed we have. Rather than respond to some of the more silly asides, I will focus on two issues: the morality of murder and the issue of homosexuality. I am asking a simple question. As an atheist, do you believe John can kill Steve for no reason, and if not, why not? Oops, I clicked Send too early! One can feel something and not act upon it. I may be born with an innate sense that I need to steal things.

That is part of the challenge of life. However — a study of biology and embryology clearly identifies a range of intersex conditions! You see I am a biologist who reads medical text books and biological studies, rather than bronze age-guesswork wearing a god-badge! Could I recommend some study of the actual subject at a top international medical reference site! Ambiguous genitalia is a birth defect where the outer genitals do not have the typical appearance of either a boy or a girl.

The male and female reproductive organs and genitals both come from the same tissue in the fetus. This makes it difficult to easily identify the infant as male or female. The extent of the ambiguity varies. In very rare instances, the physical appearance may be fully developed as the opposite of the genetic sex. For example, a genetic male may have developed the appearance of a normal female.

Alan 75 — If you had a disabled child who was a wheelchair user, would you also refuse their fellow wheelchair using partner admission? I will focus on two issues: the morality of murder and the issue of homosexuality. Re murder, rather than addressing my crystal clear question: Does an atheist believe John can kill Steve simply because John feels like it, and if not, why not,. First of all, people who are not psychopaths do not casually kill people anyway.

Usually they need a strong motive! A secular humanist view, is that societies need to establish laws and manage their own moral codes of conduct, based on equality of rights, mutual co-operation, and altruism. Perhaps you could explain the various accounts of acclaimed killings and genocides against rival states, rival tribes, and rival religions. Deuteronomy I tried to give a vague meaningless question some context.

We are fundamentally different on this point, you and I. And, in my system of morals, you are extraordinarily morally corrupt on this point. More importantly, I also find your other answers deeply, deeply immoral. It makes me happy and I have a right to it. And, that is precisely where your beliefs hurt others. And my sentiment of not judging others is clearly stated in your own Holy books and YOU choose to flout them….

Our sages ask, when are you allowed to judge another person? The answer: Never. The explanation given is as follows: Who says your blood is redder than his? Talmud — Sanhedrin 74a. You have a tradition that came purely from men inventing stuff to suit themselves and ascribing it to an imaginary god, and I mean men in the male sense because almost exclusively women had little say in the origins of the ancient religions which is why they are so discriminated against in them. End of. You are just a product of your particular childhood brainwashing.

However childhood brainwashing is very hard to overcome. We understand that and are saddened by it. Hi Avi. I am one of the secular Jews Alan mentioned and a semi regular contributor here. They have the patience of Job if that makes you more comfortable. You have also conducted yourself this way, just with a message we cannot rationally appreciate. I use the word rationally on purpose.

I will remind you again of where you are choosing to post. You need to understand that we are as incapable of believing in your sky god as you are in his absence. But let me be clear on this point: we are NOT incapable of considering it rationally however. That seems anathema to your dogma. We would never have evolved without an innate morality. This much is clear. I love that. And I shall steal that with attribution with your permission. Love that. I remember Richard debating with some bat shit crazy blonde American woman years ago who spoke in the quietest calmest voice that nothing could upset but everything that came out of her mouth was pure poison.

Also Ted Haggard raging against gays whilst paying male prostitutes for sex and calling the police against Richard because he discussed evolution he accused me of being a monkey. It has nothing, however, to do with homosexual conduct! It was not my intent to seek out a secular site just to post! However, I will note that it seems you prefer insularity, that is, you prefer not to engage in discussion with those who disagree with you.

I have no such issue, I am much more open-minded. We all agree that societies need to establish laws. So we agree, we need laws. The laws against, say, murder, are meant so that society is not destroyed. But this has nothing to do with morality! What makes you think these are positive values?

Indeed, what makes you think there are values at all? It is this issue that particularly interests me. By the way, this has nothing to do with the original posted article. Obviously you would or should agree that a self-managing group such as Orthodox Jews can have its own rules, as long as it is not forcing others to keep those rules.

I would fully agree with that notion. I await your response. I would say that I am absolutely prohibited from within! And as I have never been religions and come from a family of non-religious people and have had very little contact with orthodox Jews and no very little about Judaism. I can only assume that that feeling of murder and rape and stealing, and hurting people being wrong does not, cannot come from any God. God to me and to many compassionate and humane agnostics and atheists is simply Nothing. This sense of prohibition does not come from the State either, i.

It is not an easy thing to explain; these are complex questions, and they should be asked. Empathy, being civilized, caring about others… All those things have developed willy-nilly over the centuries, but not enough, as violence and hate and cruelty is still so prevalent, prevalent among religious Jews and Christians and Muslims and their non-believing counterparts as well.

We have enough homicides in the world. The prisons are filled with homicidal maniacs. So for all of our sakes, stay religious until you figure out how you as a man, an individual with your own set of values and sensibilities, feel about killing — and not a child or soldier taking orders from Big Daddy in the Sky.

Yes, I am expressing some disdain. Many Holy Books do advocate killing. Did you read what someone had written above about all the different religions all saying different things? Religion cannot possibly last; no lie can live forever. Regards, Report abuse. Actually it does, because the brain development governing sexual attraction, is similarly affected by hormonal effects on the embryo in the womb.

I recall this earlier comment, but it appears when it comes to homosexuals and intersex people, you express an urge for friends and family to bring pressure to bear on then in exactly that way! So which is it? Just as the writer of the article did, one can choose not to follow the laws. There seem to be conflicting claims and compartmentalised thinking in your comments. Perhaps there are some reasons here in threats to apostates, why you seem to have mental blocks making you unable to follow the reasoning which challenges some of your mistaken preconceptions.

Well Avi I appear to have underestimated your smiling hate and condescension. And if I preferred insularity I would not have posted. What I disdain however is arguing with a dogmatic close minded person which you quite clearly are. This world is no less valid than yours. These are of course worked out by people making informed judgements on predicted outcomes and balancing the interests of various parties. For example professions such as doctors have codes of conduct, which most follow voluntarily, but which include sanctions against rogue individuals.

Now we are talking! However laws as I explained should be based on evidence and predicted outcomes, not ancient superstitions. Actually no! Most systems are less than perfect, and many are corrupt! That is where the objective evaluation of various political systems comes in. The values are chosen by the people of the community. All laws and codes of conduct are the work of humans, including those which some try to enhance by sticking a god-badge on to them.

Actually, it does because it looks at the sources of ideas and mental processes directing the behaviour patterns under discussion. I recognise god-beliefs as a mental delusion created by childhood indoctrination. Groups form their own rules, but it is perfectly reasonable to evaluate the effects of these on members, relations of member, friends of members, children of members and members who wish to leave the group.

As with politics in general applications of rules are open to abuses, so criticism and in extreme cases actions are justified. There are many examples where authority figures in religions sometimes in league with politicians , abuse their positions to the detriment of their members. Not only are many regular posters on this site well read, but many are ex-Christians, from Muslim families or are secular Jews. There is a wide ranging understanding of religions and their effects in societies.

Would that be okay with you? I think we are centering on the problem! My set of questions sure seems to have exposed the closed mind and smiling hate trademark pending. Avi would regard his son being homosexual as terrible. The cognitive dissonance and absolute lack of self awareness is staggering. Guy with his hair parted on the side, accountant, clean shaven, neat orderly???? Serial killer. I can only assume…. And as I have never been religions and come from a family of non-religious people and have had very little contact with orthodox Jews and know very little about Judaism, I can only assume….

I would also add that as the atheist Dr. Jonathan Miller admitted, we do owe religion, the Christian religion in particular, a certain debt of gratitude; it helped to move the evolution of our moral idea of brotherly love along. But morality is not from God. No, that would not be okay with Alan or with any of us. It would be dreadful. But that is the world we live in and the struggle for humane laws and justice is continuous, and cruelty and injustice and bigotry, etc. That is far, far more dangerous, far more insidious — and you know it.

Yes you have centered on a fundamental problem. Dan responded: No, that would not be okay with Alan or with any of us. Dan, what I am asking is: Why would it not be okay with you? I am not seeing an answer to this question. I will note that I had the same discussion recently with my brother, a practicing, believing Orthodox Jew who maintains that one can devise a moral code without religion. But my brother, along with all the posters on this site, has been unable to logically explain why this moral code would have any standing or any validity.

What makes something right or wrong? To this, I have not heard an answer from the atheists on this site or from my believing brother, much as he wants to side with you. I am saying that as of yet, I have not heard a cogent rationale for it. I am open to suggestions! Avi — He also introduced other non-related issues e. Of course not — I explained secular values earlier. There needs to be various bodies to hold those in authority accountable.

When particular religions dominate the local legislatures national legislatures, police and the courts, actions of religious authorities are looked at through rosy spectacles, and we get the sorts of covered up abuses, such as Catholic priests raping children with impunity. Not really! The former view require a LOT more study! It is the same with making the effort of developing the ability to work out your own code of conduct, V copying a simplistic one which is spoon-fed to you.

Science based decisions on abortions are determined by survivability without debilitating complications affecting the baby or the mother, and the later potential life quality of the infant. You are going to have to stick around and join in with discussions on how the brain works, evolution and animal behaviour, to name a few, and be as open minded as you are to suggestions, if you want an answer that you might be happy with. Morality is not devised by atheist but by millions of years of evolution.

I was wondering if Religious Jewish people would be happy being represented here by Avi and I googled a few things and found this;. Why would it not be okay to kill people in a given secular community? These ideas and arguments are debated and it is rare to find a society where there is universal agreement about what should be considered right and proper and what is considered wrong and improper.

With regards to the State, I would say that in a democracy, where people are allowed to worship as they wish and to speak their minds and be who they are, its citizens should be able to enjoy their natural right of freedom to exist assuming that they are able to obey reasonable laws , to live their lives, without fear of being arrested or persecuted or punished, without being criminalized.

Dictators are always capricious and always impose their paltry will upon the freedom and the pursuit of happiness of others, trample on that right. Democracy is a state of grace, easily lost; laws concerning justice are a delicate thing too, based often on consensus. But that is the nature of morality with regards to the State.

Perhaps this basic uncertainty as to why one must not do this or that has given rise for the need on the part of many for some kind of ultimate authority on these matters. Democracy is a grace. Fascism goes back to our infancy and childhood, where we were always told how to live.

One exception involves the strapless corset that actress and pin-up girl Lana Turner wore in a musical that won an Academy Award for Costume Design. Using the plural noun pretties to refer to dainty things goes back at least to the s. By all rights it should be a lovely word, but because of its association with the Wicked Witch of the West "I'll get you, my pretty!

Currently it's a brand of whisky, and before that it was the name of a legendary sailing ship. Here's the story: "Cutty sark" comes from the now outdated words cutty "short" and sark "shirt". The term first appeared in an 18th century Scottish poem where it described a skimpy nightgown worn by a seductive but dangerous witch. The erotic power of that image somehow inspired the ship's name, which in turn inspired the whisky Knickers is actually a standard word for underwear, mainly in Britain, but we include it here because of its surprising connection to professional basketball.

At that point it was something a soldier might wear - a piece of armor for the torso. The word comes from the French word for body. Several centuries later, the same word emerged to describe a combination of girdle and brassiere. This garment is similar to the merry widow. That word refers not to where you store them i. The word drawers has been used since the 16th century to refer to garments such as stockings, underpants, and pants. It comes from the verb draw used in the sense of pull , probably because you pull them up your legs.

Instead, the union suit earns its name by uniting the upper and lower pieces of underwear in one garment. Singlet usually refers to the one-piece suit a wrestler wears, but the other British meaning describes a sleeveless undershirt. Does that mean there's a doublet? In fact, yes: It was a lined jacket worn by men during the Renaissance.


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